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Again, I don't -- I don't think Jim Jordan and/or a lot of folks, coaches, administrators, really understood that, you know, touching a man's genitals without the need to do so is the definition -- is a definition of sexual abuse and sexual assault. Again, in the mid -'80s, that -- that term wasn't necessarily used, however, to now say -- to now know that the word does apply to what was happening to us at the time is just -- is -- is -- is just -- it's surprising to me given the fact that Jim Jordan has -- this isn't the Jim Jordan I know.

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