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Michael Hardt: We're stuck, almost conceptually, between two almost clich? ways of thinking about revolution. On the one hand, we have the notion of revolution that involves the replacement of a ruling elite with another... better-in many ways-ruling elite. And that's sort of the form that many modern revolutions have taken and have posed great benefits for the people but they have not arrived at democracy. So that notion of revolution is really discredited and I think rightly so. But, opposed to that, is another notion of revolution, which I think is equally discredited but from exactly the opposite point of view, which is it's the notion of revolution that, in fact, hasn't been instituted, that thinks of revolution as just the removal of all of those forms of authority, state power, the power of capital, that stop people from expressing their natural abilities to rule themselves.

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