Religions of the World1998

[last lines]

Kwong-roshi:
"Empty" has kind of a negative connotation, again. It's very misunderstood, but there's a traditional way of looking at emptiness. Okay? There are three parts to it. And one is theoretical. We call it "theoretical Zen." And that's when form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. And not just the thinking mind. The things become one. And the second part is Tathagata Zen. And here is where there is no emptiness and no form. That's the second part. And basically nothing can be said at this point. No words can describe it. Just quiet. And the third part is: form is form, emptiness is emptiness. So these three things are very important. And you will go through that kind of spectrum in studying Zen. And the third part is the highest value in the sense that: the sky is blue, grass is green. We come back to seeing reality just as it is. And the first couple of parts is negating reality because we've already conditioned ourselves to be separated from reality. And this is how emptiness plays a major part in, uh, zazen, or meditation practice.